Dr. Ray Mills Antley, Sr. – Interview, Christmas 2010

Rest in peace, Ray

The Act of Killing review and Q and A with producer

Paul Andreas Fischer

As someone who has virtually no experience with the mass killings in Indonesia, seeing The Act of Killing was incredibly shocking. The fabulous lives of members of the former dictatorship who had become wealthy by indiscriminately killing over 2.6 million people was shown, and then the psychologies of these murderers at the time and today was explored. Less obvious but still tangentially present was the role of the government, many of whose officials were still in power and able to purchase their elections. I was struck by just how similar to A Clockwork Orange these executioners seemed in their time, and the interviews with them now almost seemed a thought experiment into an alternative sequel to that film. They killed and played, intertwining the two into a gruesome myriad of images that to some, still alive today, is still vivid in their mind and haunts them, others managed to move on. Political interrogation under this system became synonymous with torture and perjury committed by these monsters. The act of incarceration simply fell to being pushed in a car. A guilty verdict only had to be suggested. And finally, in the execution capital punishment was carried out in a stealthy but still open matter, efficiently in a silent admission to the inherent evil of these deeds, fueled by hard drug use as well as drinking and marijuana use, in futile attempts to cope with the guilt and pain of committing these atrocities. Sometimes behind closed doors at night, other times simply running down the street and stabbing anyone with a chinese demeanor or appearance, sometimes just driving through the night with a body in the back seat waiting to be hurled out into the abyss in a weak and vague impersonation of the out of this world gangster personas of Hollywood.

After the film was finished I asked about the producer’s struggle to dance the line between presenting factual historical accuracy and representing the often conflicting memories of surviving executioners. She responded that the film was not a historical film by any means, and that she herself was not a historian, but had a stronger focus on the psychology of the executioners. She explained that the film was meant as a sort of view into this unique situation that had panned out in Indonesia. Other questions in the Q and A ranged from what levels of censorship had existed, whether hidden cameras had been used as many admissions were shocking to say the least, and what power still remained in Indonesian paramilitary organizations such as the ones headed by the anti-communist former executioners. While it is not in my place to take sides or to comment on issues outside of the scope of this film, I am completely aware of the dangers of communist purges and the ten thousand executed in China even today every year, the hundreds of millions of girls killed only because of their gender, I cannot emphasize how shocked I was as to the scope of the killings, how the executioners saw it as a lifestyle and way of life, and how the society they lived in, while it was not yet a democracy, found no way to communicate for outside help or intervention. One can only assume that the vital nature of Indonesia to international shipping, and its oil reserves and refineries had a significant amount to do with this.
Another comparison to A Clockwork Orange is the pathological nature of the killers. They would do it again. I would have liked to see survivors, and to hear their accounts. but according to them there are none, and if there were they would be killed. Some justify it by claiming that the time was one of war. Others that they had no job, no real other options. No one was brought to them unless they were going to kill them. Evidence or the reality of a nuanced political situation made positively no difference. These men acted as institutionalized and even celebrated serial killers, harboring similar perversions and drug abuse as the sort in A Clockwork Orange who raped, drugged, and ultimately killed at their leisure without apparent backlash, although a key difference is that ultimately the dystopian society portrayed in that film does take punitive action at some point. I have included a typed version of the Q and A, which I took notes on to better shed light on the motives and themes of the producer.

Question and Answer:
Q: At points of violence or struggle in the filming, how was this done?
A: In the massacre scene women and children went through an extensive casting process, and the rest were former executioners bringing their old deeds back to life. The children were surrounded by family, and the film was shot in very short segments, after crying and wailing, the children were frequently given the chance to be reassured by their mothers. As for the actors, the only actual survivor from the village burning was an accident when the cameraman was shooting on a day when the producer and director were not there. The cameraman did not speak Indonesian, so he did not have the opportunity to differentiate, and after the survivor’s death two years later before the release of the film, his family contacted the film makers and gave them posthumous permissions.
Q: Is there an actual film? Or only the documentary as we saw it?
A: There was never the intention to make an actual film, the process of helping the former executioners imagine their own representation of events was merely a psychological tool to help them recount events accurately.
Q: Were there any hidden cameras used? At one point it seems as though they really think they are off tape, or just preparing?
A: At no point were hidden cameras used, and the former executioners were always aware of when the film was rolling.
Q: What was the reception in Indonesia, especially from the complicit government?
A: We started the work with survivors, showing the film to art house critics and stuff from Jakarta. We later expanded to 500 screenings across the country and now offer free downloads of the film.
Q: How did crew stand by while these gangsters took money from street sellers and were these merchants reimbursed?
A: The crew informed the merchants beforehand and had to stand by, but it was agreed the entire time that the merchants knew they were being reimbursed.
Q: Coming from Rwanda, I am curious how the government allowed this to be filmed, as in my country such an endeavour would be futile and even a fictional film such as Hotel Rwanda was nearly impossible to pull off, did the government allow this, were there special permissions needed?
A: The regime used to be a dictatorship, but is now currently a democracy. These war criminals were unpunished and even welcomed by top politicians as seen in the film. Workers unionzed against globalization are still beaten, and intimidation of family members for union membership still occurs, so the effort had to come from outside. There is a strong fear of speaking in public.
Q: What is with the list of anonymous names?
A: Indonesian crew members took part in a film with sensitive matter and we found it best to keep their identities anonymous.
Q: The number 2.6 million killed sort of splashes out, bringing a whole new level of seriousness to the film from serial murderers psychology to the psychology of a genocide was it difficult to dance the line between historical accuracy and factual information and the fantasies and personal anecdotes of the killers?
A: The film was never intended as a historical film, I am not a historian. What we sought was a stronger investigation into the psychologies of the killers and to show how they cope and live with their crimes, and success, today.
Q: What did the subjects [executioners] think of the film?
A: Most in process [missing word?], Anwar did not want to see the film originally, but decided to at some point… looking to a fishing platform. Anwar is loyal to the film, and has backed us up, keeping his word as he felt it was an important endeavour. Hermann has a sort of ‘axis’ loyalty to the film, and glorifies what it does. The paramilitary organizations did not especially approve and saw the filmmaking process as “Anwar vs. us”.
Q: What is the power of the paramilitary organizations today in Indonesia?
A: Still very powerful. If you are not portraying them well they will shut you down, but still the film does show that the country is moving forward.

Interview with Dr. Ray Mills Antley

Interview with Dr. Ray Mills Antley
Paul Fischer

What is your first memory of your mother, Wilhelmina Antley?

“Thats a question I thought about and I talked to some other people about. People are part of their mother and then they separate, the point is it becomes a matter of law, you pass a law about when you say you first remember your mother. I would have to say I don’t have any first memory of my mother so to speak, perhaps when I was 14 years old. I have pictures when I was four years old going down to main street with my mother all decked out in her fur during the great depression and everything, but I don’t remember it exactly. I guess one memory I have going downtown may have been the same time. I got lost from her, somebody recognized me in Columbia and took me to my Dad’s office. I kept hoping somebody was gonna buy me though, there was a different sense about the value of a child in the depression than today; there were too many of us depression children nobody wanted. I remember she told me to always go back to the last place you saw somebody if you ever get lost, which makes sense because if you wander, you might just miss them.”
How long were you home, and what are some typical experiences from your childhood, with Gan as a mother?
“Well I was seventeen when I left home to go to college and I never went home except for the summer of ‘58 when I came home and worked. Mother liked to do things and there was a little lake and she had a little car and we used to drive down there and go swimming, and that was great. Then we got so far we got a membership at a little pond, called Fulcrum Farms, we went up there and swam the whole summer. I remember, I used to stay in trouble most of the time. There were too many things you couldn’t do, I had to do all of it. One day I hit a girl on the head, swinging a piece of cardboard around, and I had to spend a week in the back, on restrictions in the back yard. I would come home from school and have to sit in the back yard. Mother was my disciplinarian, now I got Mary Anne.”
Do you have impressions of her from friends or family?
“They had a much more impression that mother was a powerful person, they had to do what she said. I was kind of impressed they had that impression. I don’t think I was that fearful of Mom. I thought well that wouldn’t make much difference.”
Are any of those surprising or discordant with your own experiences?
“She was completely different with all three of us. Mina was a little girl, and of all Gan’s 6 siblings, Mina was the only girl born, she loved every minute of it. Phillip and me were, you know, different. I think mother looked on me as most confident. Dad was sick, and she wanted to buy a house and forged an alliance with me to sort of see things in a similar vein to buy the house.”
Can you remember stories of her childhood or past that she told you and whether any of these were surprising?
“Most of them I’m 75-years old now, so they aren’t surprising to me now but they may have been at the time. Like one time she was about seven years old and didn’t want to take a bath and ran out in a night gown down the street and had to be caught and returned. Her sister told us that. We used to tell stories on her and all. She told me when I was an old man and she was an elderly woman about how she rang the bell during classes and emptied the school, and got away with it and afterwards they always had to hide the bell. She talked so much her dad had to pay her a quarter not to talk. Alot of my relationship with my mother we would tease and joke, and I didn’t realize until she went to the retirement home at the age of 97 and her hearing went. She’d laugh when she understood, but if she didn’t get it, she’d get disgusted and that had a lot to do with her hearing. She was a doer, I went to college, she bought me sheets and an overcoat and stuff, got me all decked out to goto college.”
How much of Gan’s life did she spend on a farm? And also what inspiration did she have to teach?
“She was the last of seven children, and all of the women taught school. She didn’t want to do that so she got a license in social work when she went to university in 1934, but Dad got a good job at the newspaper and when they got married, she stopped going to school. Then came 1941 and she went back to University of South Carolina to finish her degree and the expectation was Dad was going to be drafted. But Philip was born in May of ‘42 and Dad turned out to be too old to be drafted as the chips fell. So she continued as a housewife and took care of the family. Then 1957 after I finished my second year of college, Dad had obstruction of the esophagus and he had cancer and they didn’t expect him to live. So then she got a teacher’s certificate in ‘58 and taught for twenty years, 15 years in South Carolina and then when Dad retired in ‘74 they went to Virginia, and that was when she began to live on a farm. Her father was a pharmacist and optometrist all lived in small town and middle class, not really farm people that was more something she did as a 60-year old woman.”
Did she have any other professional or artistic aspirations to your knowledge?
“What she liked to do most was to keep house and cook. She loved her kitchen and loved the things she could do in the kitchen. Teaching was more something she had to do for a living, I think she would have preferred to do social work.”
How do you remember the communication and relations between your father and Gan?
What inspirations musically, culturally did your mother leave or instill into you?
“There is this relationship I have read about that people that are good musicians do not have much interest in recorded work, and people who are not good musicians listen to recorded music, and she definitely fits into the latter group. She had no interest in the technical aspects of music she just enjoyed opera. And she enjoyed doing things. She liked to go to opera and events she was game to do stuff. It was just a visceral enjoyment of the music. She was gregarious and outgoing and when her hearing got bad it was a big change that was sad to see, she was close to her friends, but they started to die towards the end.”
How does it feel to go by your home or neighborhood or school? What kind of changes do you see?
“The city has grown a lot and all of american society, especially city life has changed so much with the digital era, it is hard to even compare. These communities were self-contained and if anybody got out of line everybody knew it and the whole community put pressure on the family to straighten up. Things do not look the same coming back at least from the outside in. Especially the children. The streets look barren, we used to play outside and run around the playground so much there was hardly a blade of grass left on the ground.

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